[{"data":1,"prerenderedAt":4030},["ShallowReactive",2],{"article-detail-100208":3,"all-tag-group":2773,"all-tags":3699,"all-tag":3880},{"_path":4,"_dir":5,"_draft":6,"_partial":6,"_locale":7,"detail":8,"surround":758,"relateItems":802,"_id":2767,"_type":2768,"title":2769,"_source":2770,"_file":2771,"_stem":2772,"_extension":2768},"\u002Farticle\u002F100208","article",false,"",{"url":9,"title":10,"publishAt":11,"tags":12,"category":32,"eyeCatchImage":56,"showToc":67,"content":68,"text":751,"publishAtDetail":752,"tagsBySlugs":756,"sortedIndex":20,"sysId":757},100208,"「自己満足にならないエンタメ」をAIでつくれるか。Pococha × OSHIAIが決めた、AIにやらせないこと","2026-10-16T00:00",[13,18,22,27],{"name":14,"slug":15,"numberOfArticles":16,"sysId":17},"〇〇×AI","〇〇×ai",0,"6lKNv9Pk3UCffS9xQQ7Kt4",{"name":19,"slug":19,"numberOfArticles":20,"sysId":21},"エンタメ",1,"GxCTAC8I74DZHj8K9DTB5",{"name":23,"bgColor":24,"slug":23,"numberOfArticles":25,"sysId":26},"ライブコミュニティ","#C60449",2,"EEq1lgFAbfbGiXJ0Ez82B",{"name":28,"slug":29,"numberOfArticles":30,"sysId":31},"AI","ai",3,"6f67af86257489b5b116",{"metadata":33,"sys":36,"fields":54},{"tags":34,"concepts":35},[],[],{"space":37,"id":42,"type":43,"createdAt":44,"updatedAt":44,"environment":45,"publishedVersion":25,"revision":20,"contentType":49,"locale":53},{"sys":38},{"type":39,"linkType":40,"id":41},"Link","Space","7mrdlclm9xss","1YUOB3ElOJjJ5QAfDIlATj","Entry","2025-01-10T04:06:09.211Z",{"sys":46},{"id":47,"type":39,"linkType":48},"master","Environment",{"sys":50},{"type":39,"linkType":51,"id":52},"ContentType","category","en-US",{"categoryName":55},"事業・サービス",{"file":57,"sysId":66},{"url":58,"details":59,"fileName":64,"contentType":65},"\u002F\u002Fimages.ctfassets.net\u002F7mrdlclm9xss\u002F96Bzsnuzk0TWqpaz7JBxE\u002F1981486217b355703397dedf6e68ff29\u002F260803_FS_023.jpg",{"size":60,"image":61},697089,{"width":62,"height":63},1260,841,"260803_FS_023.jpg","image\u002Fjpeg","96Bzsnuzk0TWqpaz7JBxE",true,{"time":69,"blocks":70,"version":750},1791351986300,[71,78,83,88,93,99,104,109,114,128,133,138,143,148,153,166,171,176,181,186,191,196,201,215,220,225,230,235,240,245,250,255,260,265,277,282,287,292,297,302,307,312,317,322,327,332,344,349,354,359,364,369,374,379,384,389,394,408,413,418,423,428,433,438,443,448,453,458,470,475,480,485,490,495,500,505,510,515,520,525,530,535,547,552,557,562,567,572,577,582,587,592,597,609,614,619,624,629,634,639,644,649,654,659,664,669,674,679,684,689,694,699,711,716,721,726,731,736,744],{"id":72,"data":73,"type":76,"tunes":77},"R6HnvcHmyS",{"text":74,"align":75},"ライブコミュニケーションアプリ「\u003Ca href=\"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.pococha.com\u002Fja-jp\" target=\"_blank\">Pococha\u003C\u002Fa>」は、ライバーが顔を出して配信して、見ているリスナーとやりとりする、人が主役のサービスです。推し活AIアプリ「\u003Ca href=\"https:\u002F\u002Fwww.oshi-ai.com\u002F\" target=\"_blank\">OSHIAI\u003C\u002Fa>」は、アイドルやVTuber、ライバーの公認AI（アイ）と、ファンが1対1で会話できるサービスです。",null,"paragraph",{},{"id":79,"data":80,"type":76,"tunes":82},"A8gD4g1Tiu",{"text":81,"align":75},"\u003Ca href=\"https:\u002F\u002Fdena.com\u002Fjp\u002Fnews\u002F5393\u002F\" target=\"_blank\">先日発表された機能連携\u003C\u002Fa>により、Pocochaで配信するライバーのデータをもとにした公認AIとのチャットを、OSHIAIで楽しめるようになります。",{},{"id":84,"data":85,"type":76,"tunes":87},"OIKgZIXX-l",{"text":86,"align":75},"顔出し配信を基本として、人間同士のつながりを大切にするPococha。本人の公認とはいえ、あくまでAIとの会話を楽しむOSHIAI。正反対のようにも見える両サービスは、なぜ手を組むことになったのでしょうか。",{},{"id":89,"data":90,"type":76,"tunes":92},"NFQw18eD3E",{"text":91,"align":75},"Pocochaプロデューサーの水田大輔さんとOSHIAI代表の嵐亮太さんに、話を聞きました。ライバーとAIを結びつけるキーワードは「本人性」。そして二人が繰り返し話していたのは、AIに何をやらせるかではなく、何をやらせないかでした。",{},{"id":94,"data":95,"type":97,"tunes":98},"BuC1JmqjqD",{"text":96,"level":25},"10年目のPocochaと、3年目のOSHIAI","header",{},{"id":100,"data":101,"type":76,"tunes":103},"BrJQNYHfGg",{"text":102,"align":75},"\u003Cb>──Pocochaは、ライブ配信でしか生まれないつながりを価値としてきたサービスです。どうしてAIプロダクトであるOSHIAIとの提携に価値を感じたのでしょうか。\u003C\u002Fb>",{},{"id":105,"data":106,"type":76,"tunes":108},"RQHMUodBNn",{"text":107,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田 大輔（以下、水田）：\u003C\u002Fb> サービス開始からもうすぐ10年になります。長くやっているので、ライブ配信業界もだいぶ一周しちゃった感があるんです。ライブ配信に重心や軸足はありつつも、それ以外の領域にもチャレンジしていきたい。",{},{"id":110,"data":111,"type":76,"tunes":113},"dzQgT-lmpJ",{"text":112,"align":75},"Pocochaには「Live for Everyone」というビジョンがあって、有名ではない一般の方がライバーとして活躍する場所です。今後もそれは変わらないですが、ライブ配信という活動がここまで一般的になったいま、アイドルやアーティスト、そのファンのみなさんにももっと使っていただき、ライバーの世界を広げていきたいと思っています。",{},{"id":115,"data":116,"type":126,"tunes":127},"BH5pqXrwjN",{"asset":117,"caption":125},{"id":118,"file":119},"35NO5loA0AYvtuF9HpF2AR",{"url":120,"details":121,"fileName":124},"\u002F\u002Fimages.ctfassets.net\u002F7mrdlclm9xss\u002F35NO5loA0AYvtuF9HpF2AR\u002F14946d494eb79b34745ca8df5e225c08\u002F260803_FS_057.jpg",{"size":122,"image":123},528328,{"width":62,"height":63},"260803_FS_057.jpg","\u003Cb>水田 大輔（みずた だいすけ）\u003C\u002Fb>／株式会社ディー・エヌ・エー　ライブコミュニティ事業本部Pococha事業部 事業部長／Pococha プロデューサー。学生時代に起業し、株式会社REVENTIVEを創業。SNSサービス『Dear』を2016年にDeNAへ事業譲渡し、自身もDeNAへ。入社の翌月にライブコミュニケーションアプリ『Pococha』を立ち上げた。","ctf-asset-image",{},{"id":129,"data":130,"type":76,"tunes":132},"pIOJHohms_",{"text":131,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田：\u003C\u002Fb> また、Pocochaはもともとライブ配信には後発参入で、スタートアップ的にプロダクトをつくってきたカルチャーです。初心を忘れず、AIの活用という新しいテーマにも過度にディフェンシブにならずに可能性を模索していかないと。",{},{"id":134,"data":135,"type":76,"tunes":137},"4DHzmCxu3q",{"text":136,"align":75},"サイズが大きくなると守るべきものが増えて、どうしても動きが重たくなる。だからこそ、「世の中にないものをつくってやろう」というビジョンにまっすぐ向き合っているスタートアップにはリスペクトがあります。一緒にやることで、僕らももう一段突き抜けたい。",{},{"id":139,"data":140,"type":76,"tunes":142},"LjhNFAytKM",{"text":141,"align":75},"\u003Cb>──OSHIAIは、どういう経緯で立ち上げたサービスなんですか。\u003C\u002Fb>",{},{"id":144,"data":145,"type":76,"tunes":147},"9Rslw4djaN",{"text":146,"align":75},"\u003Cb>嵐 亮太（以下、嵐）： \u003C\u002Fb>2024年創業の、3年目のスタートアップです。個人的な思いですが、日本発のエンタメのグローバルプラットフォームをつくりたいという気持ちが強くありました。",{},{"id":149,"data":150,"type":76,"tunes":152},"N08hM66Ij6",{"text":151,"align":75},"もともと僕は日本のコンテンツがすごく大好きなんです。アニメや漫画、VTuberもそうですし、テレビ番組やアイドルグループとかも広くなんでも。前職では動画メディア・ライブ配信の仕事をやっていて、クリエイターの方々と日々関わっていました。みなさんの熱量やポテンシャルを、肌身をもって感じていました。",{},{"id":154,"data":155,"type":126,"tunes":165},"_CqXweIXNK",{"asset":156,"caption":164},{"id":157,"file":158},"70Lcu6EIxDYWAuoay9XMA0",{"url":159,"details":160,"fileName":163},"\u002F\u002Fimages.ctfassets.net\u002F7mrdlclm9xss\u002F70Lcu6EIxDYWAuoay9XMA0\u002F8cdca57a5ca7e5fba7fd1d82a25677c2\u002F260803_FS_252.jpg",{"size":161,"image":162},540686,{"width":62,"height":63},"260803_FS_252.jpg","\u003Cb>嵐 亮太（あらし りょうた）\u003C\u002Fb>／OSHIAI株式会社　代表取締役。2016年新卒で株式会社リクルートマーケティングパートナーズへ入社。2018年にSHOWROOM株式会社に転職し、同社の営業やIPプロデュース業務に携わる。 2020年10月から新規事業であるバーティカルシアターアプリ「smash.」の事業責任者に就任し有名アーティストとのタイアップなど牽引。 2024年より日本発で世界一のエンタメアプリを作るべくOSHIAI株式会社を創業し、ビジネス開発をリードする。",{},{"id":167,"data":168,"type":76,"tunes":170},"PlI8ItlegV",{"text":169,"align":75},"\u003Cb>嵐：\u003C\u002Fb> その一方で、僕らが普段使っているプラットフォームの多くは海外のもので、そこに日本のコンテンツを提供するという構造になっている。この構造をひっくり返せないかと、漠然と考えていました。",{},{"id":172,"data":173,"type":76,"tunes":175},"MYZAy273vj",{"text":174,"align":75},"ただ、プラットフォームって、大きな技術革新とか、世の中が大きく変化するタイミングにしか生まれてこない。コロナ禍でライブ配信が一気に伸びたのを前職で目の当たりにして、そう思ったんです。海外のメガプラットフォームが席巻している中では、そのタイミングが唯一のチャンス。だとすると、AIの波は絶対に逃せないなと。",{},{"id":177,"data":178,"type":76,"tunes":180},"uCIFDExnx6",{"text":179,"align":75},"以前メタバースが流行りましたが、今はそうでもない。でも、結果としてメタバースの技術よりVTuberというアバターの概念が残りました。最終的にプラットフォームが残るかどうかはさておき、AI×エンターテインメントという領域から何か生まれるんじゃないか。そこに挑戦しようというのが創業の経緯です。",{},{"id":182,"data":183,"type":76,"tunes":185},"vlYVSNJ7ID",{"text":184,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田：\u003C\u002Fb> たしかに、メタバースの後にアバターという概念が残ったというのはそうですよね。VTuberってすごく日本的なコンテンツで、世界にも広がった。",{},{"id":187,"data":188,"type":76,"tunes":190},"NBueVMN-b8",{"text":189,"align":75},"\u003Cb>嵐： \u003C\u002Fb>日本発のエンタメで世界に挑戦したいというのはあるんですが、もう一つ大事にしたいことがあって。クリエイターの人たちが考えていることに向き合うことで、サービスがちゃんと求められるものになって、成長していくということ。エンタメって、どうしても自己満足になりがちなところがあると思うんです。",{},{"id":192,"data":193,"type":76,"tunes":195},"NHFScHa-Ec",{"text":194,"align":75},"たとえばライブ配信で活動するクリエイターの仕事って、外から見えている以上に時間も気持ちも使うもの。周りで支えるマネージャーやスタッフの方もそうです。そこに対して、僕らが持っている技術やアイデアを活かして、クリエイターの人たちと一緒に成長していきたい。それで生まれたのがOSHIAIです。",{},{"id":197,"data":198,"type":76,"tunes":200},"cOHDARuy3O",{"text":199,"align":75},"多くのライバーさんが活動しているPocochaのようなプラットフォームと一緒に何かやっていくというのは、立ち上げた当時からの思いとしてありました。",{},{"id":202,"data":203,"type":126,"tunes":214},"ieKnqMkp7l",{"asset":204,"caption":7},{"id":205,"file":206},"5fJssbxQ979wr87QHAJf6s",{"url":207,"details":208,"fileName":213},"\u002F\u002Fimages.ctfassets.net\u002F7mrdlclm9xss\u002F5fJssbxQ979wr87QHAJf6s\u002F7fb4b69da62e38b1868f1a08b11a466f\u002FOSHIAI_KV.png",{"size":209,"image":210},2461270,{"width":211,"height":212},2208,1242,"OSHIAI KV.png",{},{"id":216,"data":217,"type":97,"tunes":219},"eEFUN5BJew",{"text":218,"level":25},"公認AIは、クリエイターの役に立てているのか",{},{"id":221,"data":222,"type":76,"tunes":224},"E5g0w71v79",{"text":223,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田：\u003C\u002Fb> クリエイターの世界って、本当にハードシングスが多いと思います。会社員のように定年まで続けるというキャリアのつくり方とはだいぶ違う。",{},{"id":226,"data":227,"type":76,"tunes":229},"JiFWsGM65n",{"text":228,"align":75},"Pocochaでトップクラスで活躍している方でも、どこかのタイミングで引退されることが多い。配信活動は気力も体力もいるので、スポーツ選手のキャリアに似たところがあるのかもしれないです。長く続けやすい仕組みはいろいろつくっているんですけど、まだ答えは出ていません。",{},{"id":231,"data":232,"type":76,"tunes":234},"wPqk2z6qLK",{"text":233,"align":75},"だから、さっき話にあった「クリエイターの仕事をサポートしたい」「クリエイターと一緒に成長したい」というOSHIAIの考え方は、僕らプラットフォームの立場からするとすごくありがたい。クリエイターの働きやすさをどうサポートするかにはある種の限界があって、だったらAIがクリエイターの代わりに活動しちゃおうという発想は、僕らプラットフォームからは出てこないので。",{},{"id":236,"data":237,"type":76,"tunes":239},"JXjEdYoWSN",{"text":238,"align":75},"\u003Cb>嵐： \u003C\u002Fb>そこは僕らも初めから「これだ」と決めていたわけではなくて。クリエイターは何を求めているのか、どういう暮らしをしているのかを理解しながら、自分たちのポジションも見直していきました。",{},{"id":241,"data":242,"type":76,"tunes":244},"CF7fuXa8vA",{"text":243,"align":75},"最初、OSHIAIは「分身AI」という表現でリリースしたんです。本人とイコールの存在として。でも、本人を再現するために必要な情報をどこからどう取得して、どんなデータを入れれば分身になるのか。ここが難しい論点で、技術的なハードルもある。正直なところ、今の再現度は60〜70点くらいだと思っています。",{},{"id":246,"data":247,"type":76,"tunes":249},"GGTfdv6IDm",{"text":248,"align":75},"じゃあもっと再現度が上がれば分身なのかというと、それも違って。「自分の代わりに全部やっておきます」は無理ですよね。ファンの方も納得しないし、本人も任せていいか不安になる。じゃあ、どういう役割や範囲でなら、70点の分身AIでも納得してもらえるのか。",{},{"id":251,"data":252,"type":76,"tunes":254},"5q4WLpMdra",{"text":253,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田：\u003C\u002Fb> 期待値のコントロールみたいなことですよね。",{},{"id":256,"data":257,"type":76,"tunes":259},"8Eaddv70fI",{"text":258,"align":75},"\u003Cb>嵐：\u003C\u002Fb> はい。だから、AIにやらせる範囲を絞るようにしていきました。僕らのクリエイターとの関わり方は、あくまでクリエイターという主役がいて、AIが補助的に動く。そういう前提で、AIの役割を置いています。",{},{"id":261,"data":262,"type":76,"tunes":264},"voJcyTgF6X",{"text":263,"align":75},"いまは「公認AI（アイ）」と呼んでいます。名前の通り、AIが主役になるサービスではないんです。",{},{"id":266,"data":267,"type":126,"tunes":276},"SqzmimP1RE",{"asset":268,"caption":7},{"id":269,"file":270},"4tcoORAZrx1SH6O63mVkWV",{"url":271,"details":272,"fileName":275},"\u002F\u002Fimages.ctfassets.net\u002F7mrdlclm9xss\u002F4tcoORAZrx1SH6O63mVkWV\u002Fb291b8a0fa9ef70a2fcffb457a5bb413\u002F260803_FS_216.jpg",{"size":273,"image":274},529218,{"width":62,"height":63},"260803_FS_216.jpg",{},{"id":278,"data":279,"type":76,"tunes":281},"SYtv-NRUKe",{"text":280,"align":75},"\u003Cb>── 主役はクリエイターで、公認AIが活動をサポートする。そうなると、先ほど話にあったライバーの負担を減らすことができると。\u003C\u002Fb>",{},{"id":283,"data":284,"type":76,"tunes":286},"v5g04OU1Et",{"text":285,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田： \u003C\u002Fb>うーん。今時点では、必ずしもそうではないかなと思います。みなさんの仕事でもAIが普及して毎日使っていると思いますが、仕事量が減って給料は増えました？AI化が進めば進むほど、僕らの労働時間は短くなるはずですよね。",{},{"id":288,"data":289,"type":76,"tunes":291},"1QWU4U9mNU",{"text":290,"align":75},"でも、僕らの仕事の時間って1秒たりとも減らないじゃないですか。当たり前ですが、こっちが効率化したら、競合も効率化する。お互いにAIを使った効率化を競い合うので、仕事のスピードは上がったとはいえ、むしろやれることが増えて忙しくなっている。",{},{"id":293,"data":294,"type":76,"tunes":296},"isCGc59uDu",{"text":295,"align":75},"ライバーもアイドルもクリエイターも同じで、AIが活動をサポートしてくれるからといって仕事が減って楽になるかと言うと、究極はそんなことない。AIがサポートしてくれた分、また別のクリエイター活動ができる。会社員よりも、クリエイターのほうがそういう動きは強いと思います。",{},{"id":298,"data":299,"type":76,"tunes":301},"RS_ylar9J3",{"text":300,"align":75},"\u003Cb>嵐： \u003C\u002Fb>僕らのアプリで言うと、アーティストの方がファンとのやりとりをAIに一部代わってもらうことで、音楽活動にもっと時間を使えているかというと、まだそこまでは実現できていないと思います。",{},{"id":303,"data":304,"type":76,"tunes":306},"uNPkalVOBb",{"text":305,"align":75},"一方で、ファン側にとってのプラスの影響は、OSHIAIユーザーでも実感しています。ライブ配信でもアイドルのライブ会場でも、毎回来てくれて、たくさん応援してくれるファンの人たちには、しっかりケアできる。でも、本当は胸の内に強い応援の気持ちがあるのに、配信枠やライブ会場で目立てなかったり、入り込めていないファンの人たちがいます。",{},{"id":308,"data":309,"type":76,"tunes":311},"RClsAPgGNn",{"text":310,"align":75},"そういう人たちも、AIを緩衝剤とすることで、ライバーやアイドルと1対1のやりとりに参加できています。公認AIを介して応援活動を楽しめたり、自分の思いを発信することができる。",{},{"id":313,"data":314,"type":76,"tunes":316},"rpXkZ6hokp",{"text":315,"align":75},"クリエイターやアーティスト側からしても、時間が空いて創作活動ができるようになったというよりは、ファンとの関係性において自分ではケアできないところ、自分からは見えづらいところをAIにサポートしてもらえる。そういうことは、OSHIAIの中でもけっこう実現できていると思います。",{},{"id":318,"data":319,"type":76,"tunes":321},"9gNc12vqg4",{"text":320,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田：\u003C\u002Fb> 人間とAIが競合するというより、人間の手が届かないところをAIが補完する。クリエイターは相変わらず忙しいままだけど、守備範囲だけが広がっている。それが現状かなと思います。",{},{"id":323,"data":324,"type":76,"tunes":326},"5w2T8XVhQc",{"text":325,"align":75},"Pocochaでも、AIを使ってどんなふうにライバー活動をサポートできるかを考えています。ライバーが初めて配信に来てくれた「ご新規リスナー」へ感謝の気持ちを伝える「お礼のお手紙」という機能があるんですけど、少し前に、AIがその文章を書くサポートをする機能のトライアルをしてみたんです。",{},{"id":328,"data":329,"type":76,"tunes":331},"n8U6_vZ0pB",{"text":330,"align":75},"検証の結果、人気上位のライバーさんたちしか、その機能を使わなかったんですよ。毎回たくさんの新しいリスナーが来てくれるライバーさんは、100人、200人と手紙を書くので、AIのサポートがとても助かるという声でした。もちろん丁寧に自分の言葉で書きたい思いはあるけれど、より多くの人に感謝を届けられるようになるので、トータルで見ればライバーのためにもファンのためにもなる、という受け止め方です。",{},{"id":333,"data":334,"type":126,"tunes":343},"ayQqwlW61l",{"asset":335,"caption":7},{"id":336,"file":337},"6Matu6Tp7NDIsBlwPwm6lv",{"url":338,"details":339,"fileName":342},"\u002F\u002Fimages.ctfassets.net\u002F7mrdlclm9xss\u002F6Matu6Tp7NDIsBlwPwm6lv\u002F511c75e0508b14f109b22f78db84a382\u002F260803_FS_151.jpg",{"size":340,"image":341},551304,{"width":62,"height":63},"260803_FS_151.jpg",{},{"id":345,"data":346,"type":76,"tunes":348},"VollAzdbRr",{"text":347,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田： \u003C\u002Fb>一方で、新しいリスナーが10人くらいのライバーさんにとっては、自分で手紙を書くことは全然できるので、AIサポート機能はあまり必要ないという意見でした。",{},{"id":350,"data":351,"type":76,"tunes":353},"QUV7uIz11-",{"text":352,"align":75},"振り返ったときに、「なるほど、世間で言われているAI格差ってこうやって広がるのか」と、ちょっとショックでした。世の中のニュースを見ていても多くの場合そうですが、AIというのはトップとの差を縮めるツールじゃなくて、トップがより強くなるツールになりやすい性質だと痛感しました。",{},{"id":355,"data":356,"type":76,"tunes":358},"5iPki4LfKg",{"text":357,"align":75},"\u003Cb>嵐： \u003C\u002Fb>確かにそうですよね。OSHIAIの現状でも、支えてくれているファンの数が多いクリエイターほど、AIがサポートできる範囲が広がっています。",{},{"id":360,"data":361,"type":76,"tunes":363},"9DEORf1lpf",{"text":362,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田：\u003C\u002Fb> エンタメ×AIの現状は、ファン側への恩恵のほうが大きい。それ自体はいいことなんですけど、ライバーさん側にはまだ返せていない。そこは正直、もどかしいです。",{},{"id":365,"data":366,"type":76,"tunes":368},"hh-omn1Vp3",{"text":367,"align":75},"だからこそ、いま上位で活躍しているライバーさんだけじゃなく、これから伸びていく人たちにどう届けるかが重要。そこを解かないと、格差を広げる側に回ってしまう。",{},{"id":370,"data":371,"type":97,"tunes":373},"og90EYPIex",{"text":372,"level":25},"「AIだけど、血が通っている感じがする」",{},{"id":375,"data":376,"type":76,"tunes":378},"BJXZQW3kCI",{"text":377,"align":75},"\u003Cb>──PocochaとOSHIAIの連携で考えていることを教えてください。\u003C\u002Fb>",{},{"id":380,"data":381,"type":76,"tunes":383},"P1JJx6nOV7",{"text":382,"align":75},"\u003Cb>嵐：\u003C\u002Fb> OSHIAIのユーザーには、公認AIとの会話で現実を補完している人と、ロールプレイを楽しんでいる人がいます。多いのは前者で、僕らは「推し活延長型」と呼んでいます。ファンの方は「この後の配信楽しみだよー」「今日ライブに行くよー」と報告したり、終わった後に感想を言ったり。推し活の起点になるイベントの前後を埋める会話ですね。",{},{"id":385,"data":386,"type":76,"tunes":388},"tPRlnzcDM-",{"text":387,"align":75},"たとえば、「推しの特典会で最近こう言われたんだけど、ちょっと目が合わない気がする。どうしたらいい？」と、そのアイドルの公認AIに相談していたりもする。現実の推し活をより楽しむために使ってくれている。そういう使われ方がマジョリティです。",{},{"id":390,"data":391,"type":76,"tunes":393},"uhbiue0FT7",{"text":392,"align":75},"Pocochaのリスナーさんも、推しのライバーさんの公認AIとの会話をもっと楽しんでもらえるかなと思ったんです。プラットフォーム自体と連携することで、OSHIAIの提供する価値を広く届けることができると思います。",{},{"id":395,"data":396,"type":126,"tunes":407},"0G1bfpD6yL",{"asset":397,"caption":7},{"id":398,"file":399},"6fjaRWE2jH7SNDNTKERTGU",{"url":400,"details":401,"fileName":406},"\u002F\u002Fimages.ctfassets.net\u002F7mrdlclm9xss\u002F6fjaRWE2jH7SNDNTKERTGU\u002F69085c9cbbc157a637fba5bcdd2d002e\u002FPococha_OSHIAI.png",{"size":402,"image":403},546497,{"width":404,"height":405},1280,670,"Pococha_OSHIAI.png",{},{"id":409,"data":410,"type":76,"tunes":412},"Rjw5BGJR9C",{"text":411,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田： \u003C\u002Fb>ライバーさんは生身の人間なので、配信活動にも限りがあります。OSHIAIとの連携で目指しているのは、Pococha APIを通じてデータを自動連携して、ライバーの公認AIを手軽につくれるようにすること。そうすれば、リスナーはいつでも「推し」の公認AIと会話を楽しむことができ、ライバーにとっても配信の合間にもコミュニティの熱量を保つことができますよね。",{},{"id":414,"data":415,"type":76,"tunes":417},"UuZEfVBhJb",{"text":416,"align":75},"ところで、先ほど、分身AIから公認AIに呼び名を変えたという話がありましたけど、どういう議論があったんですか。PocochaとOSHIAIの連携においても、Pocochaユーザーにとって「公認」であることの安心感は強いです。",{},{"id":419,"data":420,"type":76,"tunes":422},"pjkLGTTghm",{"text":421,"align":75},"\u003Cb>嵐： \u003C\u002Fb>推し活を熱心にしているユーザーへのヒアリングで、「OSHIAIって、AIだけど血が通っている感じがする」という言葉をもらったのがきっかけです。本人っぽいけど本人じゃないSNSのなりすましアカウントとは違って、OSHIAIのAIは推し本人がつくっているから血が通っている感じがする、と。",{},{"id":424,"data":425,"type":76,"tunes":427},"MM4je58FII",{"text":426,"align":75},"それを聞いて、分身AIじゃないなと思って。他人がつくった関係のないものではなく、本家公式のものである。だから、多少違うことが返ってきても、ここで話す意義を感じてもらえる。悩んだ結果、「公認AI」と表現しました。",{},{"id":429,"data":430,"type":76,"tunes":432},"mXIQWRgUGu",{"text":431,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田：\u003C\u002Fb> なるほど。同じ遺伝子が入っているという感じですね。",{},{"id":434,"data":435,"type":76,"tunes":437},"Bish1mi2no",{"text":436,"align":75},"\u003Cb>── そのような「本人性」を感じてもらうために、プロダクトとして工夫していることはありますか。\u003C\u002Fb>",{},{"id":439,"data":440,"type":76,"tunes":442},"kAgcvXoT1N",{"text":441,"align":75},"\u003Cb>嵐：\u003C\u002Fb> 2024年のベータ版では、動画も配信もやっていたんです。今はそれをカットして、入り口をテキストに絞っています。その方がアラが少なくて、減点されにくいんです。",{},{"id":444,"data":445,"type":76,"tunes":447},"1jfvGqxDjm",{"text":446,"align":75},"また、今年追加した機能で「おでかけモード」というものがあります。仮想のロケーションを訪れて、シチュエーションに応じた会話を楽しんだり、ストーリーを進めることができるんです。1〜2回チャットをしたら、すぐに「あなたはどういうタイプで、どういうことがしたいですか」と聞く。そのままおでかけモードに連れていったほうが、AIのアラを気にするより、ここで何を楽しむかという気持ちに切り替わりやすいんです。",{},{"id":449,"data":450,"type":76,"tunes":452},"TVPG-eJH-n",{"text":451,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田： \u003C\u002Fb>なるほど、それはうまい。確かにその感覚はわかります。",{},{"id":454,"data":455,"type":76,"tunes":457},"lwQPn3EYhx",{"text":456,"align":75},"「推しのアイドルと一緒にテスト勉強しよう」という世界に連れて行かれたら、ユーザーはずっと勉強の話しかしない。フリートークだと、「あれ、ちょっとAIっぽいかも…」みたいに感じやすいけれど、推しのAIに「勉強するぞ」って言われたら、頑張っちゃいそう。気づいたら、「ずっとマジで勉強しかしてないから、本物かAIかの違いが分かんないぞ」みたいな。",{},{"id":459,"data":460,"type":126,"tunes":469},"P_zofxe1Mf",{"asset":461,"caption":7},{"id":462,"file":463},"75qNBwTJzNsMjzaWmPbT1g",{"url":464,"details":465,"fileName":468},"\u002F\u002Fimages.ctfassets.net\u002F7mrdlclm9xss\u002F75qNBwTJzNsMjzaWmPbT1g\u002F477e9bfb3a21f56e07f3f1353f163731\u002F260803_FS_240.jpg",{"size":466,"image":467},638998,{"width":62,"height":63},"260803_FS_240.jpg",{},{"id":471,"data":472,"type":76,"tunes":474},"YQaC5y4rLF",{"text":473,"align":75},"\u003Cb>嵐： \u003C\u002Fb>極端に言えば、そういうことです（笑）　何をしたらいいのかを、AIにもユーザーにも、お互いに絞ってしまうという発想です。",{},{"id":476,"data":477,"type":76,"tunes":479},"uUHjeBVhtU",{"text":478,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田： \u003C\u002Fb>そもそも仮想のシチュエーションの中だから、AIかどうかは気にならなくなりそうですね。",{},{"id":481,"data":482,"type":76,"tunes":484},"Yt-2AMYt2y",{"text":483,"align":75},"\u003Cb>── 本人性は、運営側がつくり込んでいくものなんでしょうか。\u003C\u002Fb>",{},{"id":486,"data":487,"type":76,"tunes":489},"uJCCbOC0Bb",{"text":488,"align":75},"\u003Cb>嵐：\u003C\u002Fb> いえ、本人がどう言っているかがめちゃくちゃ大事なんです。アイドル、ライバー、アーティスト自身の普段の発信が効いてきます。",{},{"id":491,"data":492,"type":76,"tunes":494},"zByOP5CMny",{"text":493,"align":75},"「公認AIをつくったら、もう自分は何もしなくていいですよ」ということはありません。むしろ、本人がアップデートさせることが大事だと話しています。本人が最近どんな活動をしたのかを公認AIにインプットし続けることこそが本人性だと思うんです。",{},{"id":496,"data":497,"type":76,"tunes":499},"jMIhqV42mp",{"text":498,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田：\u003C\u002Fb> 推しのライバーに昨日あったできごとを、公認AIがちゃんと分かっていないと、ファンが会話していても興醒めするかもですよね。",{},{"id":501,"data":502,"type":76,"tunes":504},"YrWEBI7yVh",{"text":503,"align":75},"\u003Cb>嵐： \u003C\u002Fb>そうです。AIが知っている情報の鮮度と、その情報が本人に紐づいていること。ネットニュースが入っているのではなく、本人が実際に活動して、感じたことが入っている。そこがいちばん大事です。",{},{"id":506,"data":507,"type":76,"tunes":509},"UGQSkczoD1",{"text":508,"align":75},"ただ今は、そのアップデート作業をクリエイター側に依存してしまっているんです。まさにそこが、Pocochaとの連携の肝です。配信した内容がサマリーとしてすぐに読み込まれ、プロフィールの更新があれば通知で届く。そういう自動連携ができれば、本人性を高めるのに必要な情報が紐づけられます。",{},{"id":511,"data":512,"type":97,"tunes":514},"zFK6Qps2lx",{"text":513,"level":25},"クリエイターに一円も届かないところで回るお金",{},{"id":516,"data":517,"type":76,"tunes":519},"ZyugXfASY3",{"text":518,"align":75},"\u003Cb>── 今回の提携に限らず、AI時代のエンタメやライブ配信はどうなると思いますか？\u003C\u002Fb>",{},{"id":521,"data":522,"type":76,"tunes":524},"nV4FTlSRIT",{"text":523,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田： \u003C\u002Fb>最初の方で嵐さんが話していた「自己満足にならないエンタメを目指していく」という話がありましたよね。共感というか、素直にすごいなと思いました。",{},{"id":526,"data":527,"type":76,"tunes":529},"XAS-Uam84S",{"text":528,"align":75},"ライバーとリスナー、クリエイターとファンのように、2つの異なるサイドにいるユーザーをつなげる仕組みを2サイドプラットフォームと言います。この形で考えると、あまり自己満足にはなりづらいんですよ。両側のユーザーから同時に見られるので。",{},{"id":531,"data":532,"type":76,"tunes":534},"0NQ-Kg4iTI",{"text":533,"align":75},"逆に、ファンやリスナー側だけを満足させればいいなら、実在するクリエイターを無視したコンテンツでいいわけじゃないですか。2サイドの均衡を考える必要がないエンタメ×AIのサービスだと、権利を無視した際どいコンテンツが横行しやすい。片側のユーザーを満足させようとAIが頑張るほど、本来は反対側にいるべきだった人をないがしろにする方向に発展してしまう。",{},{"id":536,"data":537,"type":126,"tunes":546},"ZZIAXhoCNm",{"asset":538,"caption":7},{"id":539,"file":540},"3o7cFsQuKkyAxIBBr2BysF",{"url":541,"details":542,"fileName":545},"\u002F\u002Fimages.ctfassets.net\u002F7mrdlclm9xss\u002F3o7cFsQuKkyAxIBBr2BysF\u002F072882dcc85fa7d37e8e21ca4600825e\u002F260803_FS_201.jpg",{"size":543,"image":544},688149,{"width":62,"height":63},"260803_FS_201.jpg",{},{"id":548,"data":549,"type":76,"tunes":551},"nJscRte0g9",{"text":550,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田： \u003C\u002Fb>でも、OSHIAIはAIサービスでありながら、両側のユーザーに向き合っている。アイドルやクリエイターの方も見るし、ファンの方も見る。だから「自己満足にならない」バランス感覚があるんだなと、びっくりしました。",{},{"id":553,"data":554,"type":76,"tunes":556},"UBMJ5wSdMQ",{"text":555,"align":75},"エンタメ×AIの領域って、実際どうなんですか。OSHIAI以外だと、どちら側のアプローチが伸びているんですか。",{},{"id":558,"data":559,"type":76,"tunes":561},"5tAsdbmFe6",{"text":560,"align":75},"\u003Cb>嵐： \u003C\u002Fb>コンテンツを提供する側のクリエイターには、AIツール的なものが増えていますよね。ただ、AIでつくったアニメとかのエンタメコンテンツが何千個、何万個と大量生産されていても、それをみんなが楽しんで見ている状況ではない。",{},{"id":563,"data":564,"type":76,"tunes":566},"Rx4WZ96E7i",{"text":565,"align":75},"一方、アイドルやライバーのようなファンやリスナーとつながるコミュニティ型のエンタメは、完全にファン側、リスナー側に向けたものが伸びています。中でも、韓国発のノベル型と呼ばれるAIチャットアプリは人気で、類似サービスもどんどん出ています。「ヤンキーの彼氏がいる」みたいな設定が用意されていて、ユーザーはその中に入って、彼氏役のAIや周りの登場人物とチャットしながら、物語を自分の好きなように進めていく。そういうアプリです。",{},{"id":568,"data":569,"type":76,"tunes":571},"JvyoyouVvT",{"text":570,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田：\u003C\u002Fb> 一昔前、AIのイケメンや美女とチャットできるAIアプリが大量に出ては消えていきましたよね。消えたのではなくて、ノベル型という形で残っていったと。",{},{"id":573,"data":574,"type":76,"tunes":576},"ittimS9wjO",{"text":575,"align":75},"\u003Cb>嵐：\u003C\u002Fb> ただ、この先どうなるかはわからないです。チャットや通話できる「AIパートナー」と言っていたサービスが気づいたらノベル型に変わっていたりして、生き残った一つの型にピボットしている印象です。",{},{"id":578,"data":579,"type":76,"tunes":581},"WVAqQfwpW7",{"text":580,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田：\u003C\u002Fb>あっという間に群がってレッドオーシャン化していると。",{},{"id":583,"data":584,"type":76,"tunes":586},"MNifkphloq",{"text":585,"align":75},"こういうサービスは実在の人物に根ざしていないので、著作権や肖像権、IPライセンスがそもそも発生しない。AIが電気代をかけて出力した仮想世界に、ユーザーが入り込んでお金を払う。クリエイターに全く関係のないところで、お金が回っているビジネスです。",{},{"id":588,"data":589,"type":76,"tunes":591},"XvjUw6YzSF",{"text":590,"align":75},"\u003Cb>嵐：\u003C\u002Fb> 言ってしまえば、アイドルやクリエイターの仕事を奪っているようなことですよね。",{},{"id":593,"data":594,"type":76,"tunes":596},"145HMstvg_",{"text":595,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田：\u003C\u002Fb> しかも、それがエンタメ業界の発展につながっているかというと、あまりそうは感じられない。何かのキャラクターに似ているようなこともあるし、ものによってはグレーな印象もある。",{},{"id":598,"data":599,"type":126,"tunes":608},"AgsuKUh96w",{"asset":600,"caption":7},{"id":601,"file":602},"3qesJi1kZfdlYxsPMnusDY",{"url":603,"details":604,"fileName":607},"\u002F\u002Fimages.ctfassets.net\u002F7mrdlclm9xss\u002F3qesJi1kZfdlYxsPMnusDY\u002F90891a5a01144f8d89868951ce03f159\u002F260803_FS_106.jpg",{"size":605,"image":606},628869,{"width":62,"height":63},"260803_FS_106.jpg",{},{"id":610,"data":611,"type":76,"tunes":613},"tCPCsTwUWe",{"text":612,"align":75},"\u003Cb>──ノベル型のようなAIサービスはこの先も伸び続けるんでしょうか。\u003C\u002Fb>",{},{"id":615,"data":616,"type":76,"tunes":618},"1nDQiPVu9C",{"text":617,"align":75},"\u003Cb>嵐：\u003C\u002Fb> 僕も学生の頃は、自分の妄想の中で二次創作を楽しんでいました。でも、この前久々に妄想しようと思ったら、できなくなっていて。魔法が使えなくなったみたいな。",{},{"id":620,"data":621,"type":76,"tunes":623},"48oja0wLdR",{"text":622,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田： \u003C\u002Fb>その魔法が使える時期って、けっこう限られてますよね。昔流行った夢小説みたいな、ある種の思春期エンタメって、あまり長持ちしない気がします。ノベル型AIチャットは令和版夢小説みたいな人気なのかも。",{},{"id":625,"data":626,"type":76,"tunes":628},"ezgMV-AEtU",{"text":627,"align":75},"\u003Cb>嵐： \u003C\u002Fb>AIノベルは、読者それぞれの方向に話が進んでいくので、結末やオチを決めずにつくられている。短期的にはすごく消費されると思いますが、作品として後から読み返すものにはなりにくい。",{},{"id":630,"data":631,"type":76,"tunes":633},"h-RIPFvvuW",{"text":632,"align":75},"ただ、自分の思い通りに進められるという、強い熱量の源泉があるから流行っている。これはAI時代ならではの人間の欲求なのかもしれません。",{},{"id":635,"data":636,"type":97,"tunes":638},"zxHkeqAj8t",{"text":637,"level":25},"「同じ土俵に立っているとは思っていません」",{},{"id":640,"data":641,"type":76,"tunes":643},"g7r5wgGLPf",{"text":642,"align":75},"\u003Cb>──Pocochaとしては脅威を感じますか？\u003C\u002Fb>",{},{"id":645,"data":646,"type":76,"tunes":648},"dKF61oYj_R",{"text":647,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田： \u003C\u002Fb>AIをどう使うのかというスタンスの話なんです。「クリエイターを支援するために使います」となる限り、クリエイターがないがしろにされることはない。でも、「完全オリジナルのAIライバーが、24時間365日、勝手に活動します」となったら、ライバーの敵ですよね。それがビジネスとして成立するのかどうか。",{},{"id":650,"data":651,"type":76,"tunes":653},"ndfQ0NvYZl",{"text":652,"align":75},"Pocochaはライバーとリスナーという人と人とのつながりが価値のコミュニティ型のエンタメです。同じ土俵に立っているとは思っていません。",{},{"id":655,"data":656,"type":76,"tunes":658},"sbYM60PeWq",{"text":657,"align":75},"人間から仕事を奪うためにAIライバーを生み出すのか。それとも、ライバーのできることを増やすとか、やらなくていいことを引き受けるためにAIライバーをつくるのか。全然スタンスが違うんですよ。OSHIAIもPocochaも、実在しているクリエイターと、その人たちがつくってきた業界とその歴史にリスペクトがあります。",{},{"id":660,"data":661,"type":76,"tunes":663},"K6tO9xQL1v",{"text":662,"align":75},"\u003Cb>── 最後に、今回の連携について改めて聞かせてください。\u003C\u002Fb>",{},{"id":665,"data":666,"type":76,"tunes":668},"Bjm-zVw9f_",{"text":667,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田：\u003C\u002Fb> とにかく、クリエイターをないがしろにしないというのが大前提です。そうなってくると、エンタメ領域のAIスタートアップの多くは、最初から組み先としては外れるんですよ。",{},{"id":670,"data":671,"type":76,"tunes":673},"0dRZOFfgBC",{"text":672,"align":75},"クリエイティブ産業とAIの難しさというか。著作権が本当に守られているのかどうかは、正直わからない。日本でガイドラインをつくっても、グローバルでは守られていなかったりする。本来なら学習してはいけないものまでAIが学習している可能性がある中で、そのAIで生み出されたコンテンツが、さらにクリエイターをないがしろにしていく。",{},{"id":675,"data":676,"type":76,"tunes":678},"gVSwm4JsCy",{"text":677,"align":75},"そういうグレーな世界の中で、OSHIAIはクリエイターエコノミーや既存のアイドル業界に根ざしてやろうとしている。Pocochaが提携できるとしたら、必然的にそういうスタンスのプロダクト同士だというのは、最初から思っていました。",{},{"id":680,"data":681,"type":76,"tunes":683},"gpyWNNiU14",{"text":682,"align":75},"\u003Cb>嵐：\u003C\u002Fb> OSHIAIはアイドルやクリエイターが自分の公認AIをつくるサービスです。学習させるデータも、本人が許可したり公開している活動の記録に限っています。最初に起業の思いを話しましたが、僕らはクリエイターに向き合って、一緒に成長していくことを第一に考えています。",{},{"id":685,"data":686,"type":76,"tunes":688},"ysOeJ6wK16",{"text":687,"align":75},"余談ですが、ある画像生成AIで、有名なアニメ作品の絵柄に似たイラストが大量につくられたことがありましたよね。それまではAIのイラスト学習に批判的なムードだったのに、SNSのアイコンに使う人をたくさん見かけました。",{},{"id":690,"data":691,"type":76,"tunes":693},"NjZkMVhAov",{"text":692,"align":75},"\u003Cb>水田： \u003C\u002Fb>倫理観はいずこへ……というね。",{},{"id":695,"data":696,"type":76,"tunes":698},"S9Mlu-4CL5",{"text":697,"align":75},"\u003Cb>嵐：\u003C\u002Fb> だからこそ、エンタメ×AIでやっていくなら、ポリシーがすべて。僕らはあくまでクリエイター側に寄り添い、クリエイター側がより活躍できる世界を大事にする。",{},{"id":700,"data":701,"type":126,"tunes":710},"Xk9BBt8aPL",{"asset":702,"caption":7},{"id":703,"file":704},"3oNVlgzx90NnZd4lJIxazk",{"url":705,"details":706,"fileName":709},"\u002F\u002Fimages.ctfassets.net\u002F7mrdlclm9xss\u002F3oNVlgzx90NnZd4lJIxazk\u002F066f5e0f00192c9666f3bd48bcdfe1e7\u002F260803_FS_015.jpg",{"size":707,"image":708},693531,{"width":62,"height":63},"260803_FS_015.jpg",{},{"id":712,"data":713,"type":714,"tunes":715},"h1lR5XcpYn",{},"delimiter",{},{"id":717,"data":718,"type":76,"tunes":720},"2DrLYCTYKK",{"text":719,"align":75},"日本発のエンタメをつくるという点でも、AIは翻訳がとても楽なので、クリエイターにとっても重要なツール。公認AIのOSHIAIなら、クリエイターの活動が海外のユーザーにも届けられると思っています。",{},{"id":722,"data":723,"type":76,"tunes":725},"fvTDFjXmtY",{"text":724,"align":75},"推しの配信が終わって、画面が暗くなる。次はいつだろう、と思いながらアプリを閉じる。今回の連携で埋まるのは、その空白の時間です。",{},{"id":727,"data":728,"type":76,"tunes":730},"IHz3d2fT5H",{"text":729,"align":75},"ただ、今回語られたことの多くは、「やらないこと」でした。AIに配信はさせない。動画もやらない。話す内容も、本人が昨日やったことの範囲から出さない。できることを足すのではなく、はみ出さない線を先に引く。それが、AIがまとう「本人性」の秘訣なのだと思いました。",{},{"id":732,"data":733,"type":76,"tunes":735},"9HaD5IBxSp",{"text":734,"align":75},"「エンタメは自己満足になりやすい」。ファンだけを見ていれば、実在する人を無視したコンテンツでも成立してしまう。クリエイターとファンの両方に向き合うという共通のスタンスが、PocochaとOSHIAIの連携の土台になっていました。",{},{"id":737,"data":738,"type":76,"tunes":740},"OiuX1eP-Vv",{"text":739,"align":75},"※本記事掲載の情報は、公開日時点のものです。",{"wrapped":741},{"types":742},[743],"note",{"id":745,"data":746,"type":76,"tunes":749},"Owgu6uBdd4",{"text":747,"align":748},"執筆・編集：村田 喜直　撮影：内田 麻美","RIGHT",{},"2.31.6","ライブコミュニケーションアプリ「Pococha」は、ライバーが顔を出して配信して、見ているリスナーとやりとりする、人が主役のサービスです。推し活AIアプリ「OSHIAI」は、アイドルやVTuber、ライバーの公認AI（アイ）と、ファンが1対1で会話できるサービスです。\n\n先日発表された機能連携により、Pocochaで配信するライバーのデータをもとにした公認AIとのチャットを、OSHIAIで楽しめるようになります。\n\n顔出し配信を基本として、人間同士のつながりを大切にするPococha。本人の公認とはいえ、あくまでAIとの会話を楽しむOSHIAI。正反対のようにも見える両サービスは、なぜ手を組むことになったのでしょうか。\n\nPocochaプロデューサーの水田大輔さんとOSHIAI代表の嵐亮太さんに、話を聞きました。ライバーとAIを結びつけるキーワードは「本人性」。そして二人が繰り返し話していたのは、AIに何をやらせるかではなく、何をやらせないかでした。\n\n10年目のPocochaと、3年目のOSHIAI\n\n──Pocochaは、ライブ配信でしか生まれないつながりを価値としてきたサービスです。どうしてAIプロダクトであるOSHIAIとの提携に価値を感じたのでしょうか。\n\n水田 大輔（以下、水田）： サービス開始からもうすぐ10年になります。長くやっているので、ライブ配信業界もだいぶ一周しちゃった感があるんです。ライブ配信に重心や軸足はありつつも、それ以外の領域にもチャレンジしていきたい。\n\nPocochaには「Live for Everyone」というビジョンがあって、有名ではない一般の方がライバーとして活躍する場所です。今後もそれは変わらないですが、ライブ配信という活動がここまで一般的になったいま、アイドルやアーティスト、そのファンのみなさんにももっと使っていただき、ライバーの世界を広げていきたいと思っています。\n\n水田 大輔（みずた だいすけ）／株式会社ディー・エヌ・エー　ライブコミュニティ事業本部Pococha事業部 事業部長／Pococha プロデューサー。学生時代に起業し、株式会社REVENTIVEを創業。SNSサービス『Dear』を2016年にDeNAへ事業譲渡し、自身もDeNAへ。入社の翌月にライブコミュニケーションアプリ『Pococha』を立ち上げた。\n\n水田： また、Pocochaはもともとライブ配信には後発参入で、スタートアップ的にプロダクトをつくってきたカルチャーです。初心を忘れず、AIの活用という新しいテーマにも過度にディフェンシブにならずに可能性を模索していかないと。\n\nサイズが大きくなると守るべきものが増えて、どうしても動きが重たくなる。だからこそ、「世の中にないものをつくってやろう」というビジョンにまっすぐ向き合っているスタートアップにはリスペクトがあります。一緒にやることで、僕らももう一段突き抜けたい。\n\n──OSHIAIは、どういう経緯で立ち上げたサービスなんですか。\n\n嵐 亮太（以下、嵐）： 2024年創業の、3年目のスタートアップです。個人的な思いですが、日本発のエンタメのグローバルプラットフォームをつくりたいという気持ちが強くありました。\n\nもともと僕は日本のコンテンツがすごく大好きなんです。アニメや漫画、VTuberもそうですし、テレビ番組やアイドルグループとかも広くなんでも。前職では動画メディア・ライブ配信の仕事をやっていて、クリエイターの方々と日々関わっていました。みなさんの熱量やポテンシャルを、肌身をもって感じていました。\n\n嵐 亮太（あらし りょうた）／OSHIAI株式会社　代表取締役。2016年新卒で株式会社リクルートマーケティングパートナーズへ入社。2018年にSHOWROOM株式会社に転職し、同社の営業やIPプロデュース業務に携わる。 2020年10月から新規事業であるバーティカルシアターアプリ「smash.」の事業責任者に就任し有名アーティストとのタイアップなど牽引。 2024年より日本発で世界一のエンタメアプリを作るべくOSHIAI株式会社を創業し、ビジネス開発をリードする。\n\n嵐： その一方で、僕らが普段使っているプラットフォームの多くは海外のもので、そこに日本のコンテンツを提供するという構造になっている。この構造をひっくり返せないかと、漠然と考えていました。\n\nただ、プラットフォームって、大きな技術革新とか、世の中が大きく変化するタイミングにしか生まれてこない。コロナ禍でライブ配信が一気に伸びたのを前職で目の当たりにして、そう思ったんです。海外のメガプラットフォームが席巻している中では、そのタイミングが唯一のチャンス。だとすると、AIの波は絶対に逃せないなと。\n\n以前メタバースが流行りましたが、今はそうでもない。でも、結果としてメタバースの技術よりVTuberというアバターの概念が残りました。最終的にプラットフォームが残るかどうかはさておき、AI×エンターテインメントという領域から何か生まれるんじゃないか。そこに挑戦しようというのが創業の経緯です。\n\n水田： たしかに、メタバースの後にアバターという概念が残ったというのはそうですよね。VTuberってすごく日本的なコンテンツで、世界にも広がった。\n\n嵐： 日本発のエンタメで世界に挑戦したいというのはあるんですが、もう一つ大事にしたいことがあって。クリエイターの人たちが考えていることに向き合うことで、サービスがちゃんと求められるものになって、成長していくということ。エンタメって、どうしても自己満足になりがちなところがあると思うんです。\n\nたとえばライブ配信で活動するクリエイターの仕事って、外から見えている以上に時間も気持ちも使うもの。周りで支えるマネージャーやスタッフの方もそうです。そこに対して、僕らが持っている技術やアイデアを活かして、クリエイターの人たちと一緒に成長していきたい。それで生まれたのがOSHIAIです。\n\n多くのライバーさんが活動しているPocochaのようなプラットフォームと一緒に何かやっていくというのは、立ち上げた当時からの思いとしてありました。\n\n公認AIは、クリエイターの役に立てているのか\n\n水田： クリエイターの世界って、本当にハードシングスが多いと思います。会社員のように定年まで続けるというキャリアのつくり方とはだいぶ違う。\n\nPocochaでトップクラスで活躍している方でも、どこかのタイミングで引退されることが多い。配信活動は気力も体力もいるので、スポーツ選手のキャリアに似たところがあるのかもしれないです。長く続けやすい仕組みはいろいろつくっているんですけど、まだ答えは出ていません。\n\nだから、さっき話にあった「クリエイターの仕事をサポートしたい」「クリエイターと一緒に成長したい」というOSHIAIの考え方は、僕らプラットフォームの立場からするとすごくありがたい。クリエイターの働きやすさをどうサポートするかにはある種の限界があって、だったらAIがクリエイターの代わりに活動しちゃおうという発想は、僕らプラットフォームからは出てこないので。\n\n嵐： そこは僕らも初めから「これだ」と決めていたわけではなくて。クリエイターは何を求めているのか、どういう暮らしをしているのかを理解しながら、自分たちのポジションも見直していきました。\n\n最初、OSHIAIは「分身AI」という表現でリリースしたんです。本人とイコールの存在として。でも、本人を再現するために必要な情報をどこからどう取得して、どんなデータを入れれば分身になるのか。ここが難しい論点で、技術的なハードルもある。正直なところ、今の再現度は60〜70点くらいだと思っています。\n\nじゃあもっと再現度が上がれば分身なのかというと、それも違って。「自分の代わりに全部やっておきます」は無理ですよね。ファンの方も納得しないし、本人も任せていいか不安になる。じゃあ、どういう役割や範囲でなら、70点の分身AIでも納得してもらえるのか。\n\n水田： 期待値のコントロールみたいなことですよね。\n\n嵐： はい。だから、AIにやらせる範囲を絞るようにしていきました。僕らのクリエイターとの関わり方は、あくまでクリエイターという主役がいて、AIが補助的に動く。そういう前提で、AIの役割を置いています。\n\nいまは「公認AI（アイ）」と呼んでいます。名前の通り、AIが主役になるサービスではないんです。\n\n── 主役はクリエイターで、公認AIが活動をサポートする。そうなると、先ほど話にあったライバーの負担を減らすことができると。\n\n水田： うーん。今時点では、必ずしもそうではないかなと思います。みなさんの仕事でもAIが普及して毎日使っていると思いますが、仕事量が減って給料は増えました？AI化が進めば進むほど、僕らの労働時間は短くなるはずですよね。\n\nでも、僕らの仕事の時間って1秒たりとも減らないじゃないですか。当たり前ですが、こっちが効率化したら、競合も効率化する。お互いにAIを使った効率化を競い合うので、仕事のスピードは上がったとはいえ、むしろやれることが増えて忙しくなっている。\n\nライバーもアイドルもクリエイターも同じで、AIが活動をサポートしてくれるからといって仕事が減って楽になるかと言うと、究極はそんなことない。AIがサポートしてくれた分、また別のクリエイター活動ができる。会社員よりも、クリエイターのほうがそういう動きは強いと思います。\n\n嵐： 僕らのアプリで言うと、アーティストの方がファンとのやりとりをAIに一部代わってもらうことで、音楽活動にもっと時間を使えているかというと、まだそこまでは実現できていないと思います。\n\n一方で、ファン側にとってのプラスの影響は、OSHIAIユーザーでも実感しています。ライブ配信でもアイドルのライブ会場でも、毎回来てくれて、たくさん応援してくれるファンの人たちには、しっかりケアできる。でも、本当は胸の内に強い応援の気持ちがあるのに、配信枠やライブ会場で目立てなかったり、入り込めていないファンの人たちがいます。\n\nそういう人たちも、AIを緩衝剤とすることで、ライバーやアイドルと1対1のやりとりに参加できています。公認AIを介して応援活動を楽しめたり、自分の思いを発信することができる。\n\nクリエイターやアーティスト側からしても、時間が空いて創作活動ができるようになったというよりは、ファンとの関係性において自分ではケアできないところ、自分からは見えづらいところをAIにサポートしてもらえる。そういうことは、OSHIAIの中でもけっこう実現できていると思います。\n\n水田： 人間とAIが競合するというより、人間の手が届かないところをAIが補完する。クリエイターは相変わらず忙しいままだけど、守備範囲だけが広がっている。それが現状かなと思います。\n\nPocochaでも、AIを使ってどんなふうにライバー活動をサポートできるかを考えています。ライバーが初めて配信に来てくれた「ご新規リスナー」へ感謝の気持ちを伝える「お礼のお手紙」という機能があるんですけど、少し前に、AIがその文章を書くサポートをする機能のトライアルをしてみたんです。\n\n検証の結果、人気上位のライバーさんたちしか、その機能を使わなかったんですよ。毎回たくさんの新しいリスナーが来てくれるライバーさんは、100人、200人と手紙を書くので、AIのサポートがとても助かるという声でした。もちろん丁寧に自分の言葉で書きたい思いはあるけれど、より多くの人に感謝を届けられるようになるので、トータルで見ればライバーのためにもファンのためにもなる、という受け止め方です。\n\n水田： 一方で、新しいリスナーが10人くらいのライバーさんにとっては、自分で手紙を書くことは全然できるので、AIサポート機能はあまり必要ないという意見でした。\n\n振り返ったときに、「なるほど、世間で言われているAI格差ってこうやって広がるのか」と、ちょっとショックでした。世の中のニュースを見ていても多くの場合そうですが、AIというのはトップとの差を縮めるツールじゃなくて、トップがより強くなるツールになりやすい性質だと痛感しました。\n\n嵐： 確かにそうですよね。OSHIAIの現状でも、支えてくれているファンの数が多いクリエイターほど、AIがサポートできる範囲が広がっています。\n\n水田： エンタメ×AIの現状は、ファン側への恩恵のほうが大きい。それ自体はいいことなんですけど、ライバーさん側にはまだ返せていない。そこは正直、もどかしいです。\n\nだからこそ、いま上位で活躍しているライバーさんだけじゃなく、これから伸びていく人たちにどう届けるかが重要。そこを解かないと、格差を広げる側に回ってしまう。\n\n「AIだけど、血が通っている感じがする」\n\n──PocochaとOSHIAIの連携で考えていることを教えてください。\n\n嵐： OSHIAIのユーザーには、公認AIとの会話で現実を補完している人と、ロールプレイを楽しんでいる人がいます。多いのは前者で、僕らは「推し活延長型」と呼んでいます。ファンの方は「この後の配信楽しみだよー」「今日ライブに行くよー」と報告したり、終わった後に感想を言ったり。推し活の起点になるイベントの前後を埋める会話ですね。\n\nたとえば、「推しの特典会で最近こう言われたんだけど、ちょっと目が合わない気がする。どうしたらいい？」と、そのアイドルの公認AIに相談していたりもする。現実の推し活をより楽しむために使ってくれている。そういう使われ方がマジョリティです。\n\nPocochaのリスナーさんも、推しのライバーさんの公認AIとの会話をもっと楽しんでもらえるかなと思ったんです。プラットフォーム自体と連携することで、OSHIAIの提供する価値を広く届けることができると思います。\n\n水田： ライバーさんは生身の人間なので、配信活動にも限りがあります。OSHIAIとの連携で目指しているのは、Pococha APIを通じてデータを自動連携して、ライバーの公認AIを手軽につくれるようにすること。そうすれば、リスナーはいつでも「推し」の公認AIと会話を楽しむことができ、ライバーにとっても配信の合間にもコミュニティの熱量を保つことができますよね。\n\nところで、先ほど、分身AIから公認AIに呼び名を変えたという話がありましたけど、どういう議論があったんですか。PocochaとOSHIAIの連携においても、Pocochaユーザーにとって「公認」であることの安心感は強いです。\n\n嵐： 推し活を熱心にしているユーザーへのヒアリングで、「OSHIAIって、AIだけど血が通っている感じがする」という言葉をもらったのがきっかけです。本人っぽいけど本人じゃないSNSのなりすましアカウントとは違って、OSHIAIのAIは推し本人がつくっているから血が通っている感じがする、と。\n\nそれを聞いて、分身AIじゃないなと思って。他人がつくった関係のないものではなく、本家公式のものである。だから、多少違うことが返ってきても、ここで話す意義を感じてもらえる。悩んだ結果、「公認AI」と表現しました。\n\n水田： なるほど。同じ遺伝子が入っているという感じですね。\n\n── そのような「本人性」を感じてもらうために、プロダクトとして工夫していることはありますか。\n\n嵐： 2024年のベータ版では、動画も配信もやっていたんです。今はそれをカットして、入り口をテキストに絞っています。その方がアラが少なくて、減点されにくいんです。\n\nまた、今年追加した機能で「おでかけモード」というものがあります。仮想のロケーションを訪れて、シチュエーションに応じた会話を楽しんだり、ストーリーを進めることができるんです。1〜2回チャットをしたら、すぐに「あなたはどういうタイプで、どういうことがしたいですか」と聞く。そのままおでかけモードに連れていったほうが、AIのアラを気にするより、ここで何を楽しむかという気持ちに切り替わりやすいんです。\n\n水田： なるほど、それはうまい。確かにその感覚はわかります。\n\n「推しのアイドルと一緒にテスト勉強しよう」という世界に連れて行かれたら、ユーザーはずっと勉強の話しかしない。フリートークだと、「あれ、ちょっとAIっぽいかも…」みたいに感じやすいけれど、推しのAIに「勉強するぞ」って言われたら、頑張っちゃいそう。気づいたら、「ずっとマジで勉強しかしてないから、本物かAIかの違いが分かんないぞ」みたいな。\n\n嵐： 極端に言えば、そういうことです（笑）　何をしたらいいのかを、AIにもユーザーにも、お互いに絞ってしまうという発想です。\n\n水田： そもそも仮想のシチュエーションの中だから、AIかどうかは気にならなくなりそうですね。\n\n── 本人性は、運営側がつくり込んでいくものなんでしょうか。\n\n嵐： いえ、本人がどう言っているかがめちゃくちゃ大事なんです。アイドル、ライバー、アーティスト自身の普段の発信が効いてきます。\n\n「公認AIをつくったら、もう自分は何もしなくていいですよ」ということはありません。むしろ、本人がアップデートさせることが大事だと話しています。本人が最近どんな活動をしたのかを公認AIにインプットし続けることこそが本人性だと思うんです。\n\n水田： 推しのライバーに昨日あったできごとを、公認AIがちゃんと分かっていないと、ファンが会話していても興醒めするかもですよね。\n\n嵐： そうです。AIが知っている情報の鮮度と、その情報が本人に紐づいていること。ネットニュースが入っているのではなく、本人が実際に活動して、感じたことが入っている。そこがいちばん大事です。\n\nただ今は、そのアップデート作業をクリエイター側に依存してしまっているんです。まさにそこが、Pocochaとの連携の肝です。配信した内容がサマリーとしてすぐに読み込まれ、プロフィールの更新があれば通知で届く。そういう自動連携ができれば、本人性を高めるのに必要な情報が紐づけられます。\n\nクリエイターに一円も届かないところで回るお金\n\n── 今回の提携に限らず、AI時代のエンタメやライブ配信はどうなると思いますか？\n\n水田： 最初の方で嵐さんが話していた「自己満足にならないエンタメを目指していく」という話がありましたよね。共感というか、素直にすごいなと思いました。\n\nライバーとリスナー、クリエイターとファンのように、2つの異なるサイドにいるユーザーをつなげる仕組みを2サイドプラットフォームと言います。この形で考えると、あまり自己満足にはなりづらいんですよ。両側のユーザーから同時に見られるので。\n\n逆に、ファンやリスナー側だけを満足させればいいなら、実在するクリエイターを無視したコンテンツでいいわけじゃないですか。2サイドの均衡を考える必要がないエンタメ×AIのサービスだと、権利を無視した際どいコンテンツが横行しやすい。片側のユーザーを満足させようとAIが頑張るほど、本来は反対側にいるべきだった人をないがしろにする方向に発展してしまう。\n\n水田： でも、OSHIAIはAIサービスでありながら、両側のユーザーに向き合っている。アイドルやクリエイターの方も見るし、ファンの方も見る。だから「自己満足にならない」バランス感覚があるんだなと、びっくりしました。\n\nエンタメ×AIの領域って、実際どうなんですか。OSHIAI以外だと、どちら側のアプローチが伸びているんですか。\n\n嵐： コンテンツを提供する側のクリエイターには、AIツール的なものが増えていますよね。ただ、AIでつくったアニメとかのエンタメコンテンツが何千個、何万個と大量生産されていても、それをみんなが楽しんで見ている状況ではない。\n\n一方、アイドルやライバーのようなファンやリスナーとつながるコミュニティ型のエンタメは、完全にファン側、リスナー側に向けたものが伸びています。中でも、韓国発のノベル型と呼ばれるAIチャットアプリは人気で、類似サービスもどんどん出ています。「ヤンキーの彼氏がいる」みたいな設定が用意されていて、ユーザーはその中に入って、彼氏役のAIや周りの登場人物とチャットしながら、物語を自分の好きなように進めていく。そういうアプリです。\n\n水田： 一昔前、AIのイケメンや美女とチャットできるAIアプリが大量に出ては消えていきましたよね。消えたのではなくて、ノベル型という形で残っていったと。\n\n嵐： ただ、この先どうなるかはわからないです。チャットや通話できる「AIパートナー」と言っていたサービスが気づいたらノベル型に変わっていたりして、生き残った一つの型にピボットしている印象です。\n\n水田：あっという間に群がってレッドオーシャン化していると。\n\nこういうサービスは実在の人物に根ざしていないので、著作権や肖像権、IPライセンスがそもそも発生しない。AIが電気代をかけて出力した仮想世界に、ユーザーが入り込んでお金を払う。クリエイターに全く関係のないところで、お金が回っているビジネスです。\n\n嵐： 言ってしまえば、アイドルやクリエイターの仕事を奪っているようなことですよね。\n\n水田： しかも、それがエンタメ業界の発展につながっているかというと、あまりそうは感じられない。何かのキャラクターに似ているようなこともあるし、ものによってはグレーな印象もある。\n\n──ノベル型のようなAIサービスはこの先も伸び続けるんでしょうか。\n\n嵐： 僕も学生の頃は、自分の妄想の中で二次創作を楽しんでいました。でも、この前久々に妄想しようと思ったら、できなくなっていて。魔法が使えなくなったみたいな。\n\n水田： その魔法が使える時期って、けっこう限られてますよね。昔流行った夢小説みたいな、ある種の思春期エンタメって、あまり長持ちしない気がします。ノベル型AIチャットは令和版夢小説みたいな人気なのかも。\n\n嵐： AIノベルは、読者それぞれの方向に話が進んでいくので、結末やオチを決めずにつくられている。短期的にはすごく消費されると思いますが、作品として後から読み返すものにはなりにくい。\n\nただ、自分の思い通りに進められるという、強い熱量の源泉があるから流行っている。これはAI時代ならではの人間の欲求なのかもしれません。\n\n「同じ土俵に立っているとは思っていません」\n\n──Pocochaとしては脅威を感じますか？\n\n水田： AIをどう使うのかというスタンスの話なんです。「クリエイターを支援するために使います」となる限り、クリエイターがないがしろにされることはない。でも、「完全オリジナルのAIライバーが、24時間365日、勝手に活動します」となったら、ライバーの敵ですよね。それがビジネスとして成立するのかどうか。\n\nPocochaはライバーとリスナーという人と人とのつながりが価値のコミュニティ型のエンタメです。同じ土俵に立っているとは思っていません。\n\n人間から仕事を奪うためにAIライバーを生み出すのか。それとも、ライバーのできることを増やすとか、やらなくていいことを引き受けるためにAIライバーをつくるのか。全然スタンスが違うんですよ。OSHIAIもPocochaも、実在しているクリエイターと、その人たちがつくってきた業界とその歴史にリスペクトがあります。\n\n── 最後に、今回の連携について改めて聞かせてください。\n\n水田： とにかく、クリエイターをないがしろにしないというのが大前提です。そうなってくると、エンタメ領域のAIスタートアップの多くは、最初から組み先としては外れるんですよ。\n\nクリエイティブ産業とAIの難しさというか。著作権が本当に守られているのかどうかは、正直わからない。日本でガイドラインをつくっても、グローバルでは守られていなかったりする。本来なら学習してはいけないものまでAIが学習している可能性がある中で、そのAIで生み出されたコンテンツが、さらにクリエイターをないがしろにしていく。\n\nそういうグレーな世界の中で、OSHIAIはクリエイターエコノミーや既存のアイドル業界に根ざしてやろうとしている。Pocochaが提携できるとしたら、必然的にそういうスタンスのプロダクト同士だというのは、最初から思っていました。\n\n嵐： OSHIAIはアイドルやクリエイターが自分の公認AIをつくるサービスです。学習させるデータも、本人が許可したり公開している活動の記録に限っています。最初に起業の思いを話しましたが、僕らはクリエイターに向き合って、一緒に成長していくことを第一に考えています。\n\n余談ですが、ある画像生成AIで、有名なアニメ作品の絵柄に似たイラストが大量につくられたことがありましたよね。それまではAIのイラスト学習に批判的なムードだったのに、SNSのアイコンに使う人をたくさん見かけました。\n\n水田： 倫理観はいずこへ……というね。\n\n嵐： だからこそ、エンタメ×AIでやっていくなら、ポリシーがすべて。僕らはあくまでクリエイター側に寄り添い、クリエイター側がより活躍できる世界を大事にする。\n\n日本発のエンタメをつくるという点でも、AIは翻訳がとても楽なので、クリエイターにとっても重要なツール。公認AIのOSHIAIなら、クリエイターの活動が海外のユーザーにも届けられると思っています。\n\n推しの配信が終わって、画面が暗くなる。次はいつだろう、と思いながらアプリを閉じる。今回の連携で埋まるのは、その空白の時間です。\n\nただ、今回語られたことの多くは、「やらないこと」でした。AIに配信はさせない。動画もやらない。話す内容も、本人が昨日やったことの範囲から出さない。できることを足すのではなく、はみ出さない線を先に引く。それが、AIがまとう「本人性」の秘訣なのだと思いました。\n\n「エンタメは自己満足になりやすい」。ファンだけを見ていれば、実在する人を無視したコンテンツでも成立してしまう。クリエイターとファンの両方に向き合うという共通のスタンスが、PocochaとOSHIAIの連携の土台になっていました。\n\n※本記事掲載の情報は、公開日時点のものです。\n\n執筆・編集：村田 喜直　撮影：内田 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